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Filed under: Industry People, Masahiro Sakurai, Super Smash Bros. Series

Featured Comments

Featured-Comment

 
This article looks at comments made from January 16th- January 26th

There’s a lot of comments to respond to — over 16 pages (Usually I have 5 pages to respond to!). I’m sorry in advance if I don’t respond to your comments.

Remember, don’t insult other posters. If you insult other posters, your post that you might have spent so much time on might not get approved, and thrown in the trash. Stay classy!

Spoiler title

DK and Mario split-off from the same game. He’s not like Yoshi and Wario who debuted in actual Mario games and got spin-offs later. Remember it’s DK’s name on the debut game and not Mario’s. Smash treats the Donkey Kong arcade game and Donkey Kong Jr. has as part of the DK series. 75m is under the DK logo, and the Hammer and Spring items are treated as DK items in the trophies section.

Yoshi is pretty much a Mario character. He still shows up regularly in the platformers. Even his games feature a lot of Mario enemies and elements. Don’t forget the main bad guys are Baby Bowser and Kamek, a magikoopa.

I think Wario is somewhat his own thing, but not fully. WarioWare on it’s own? Yeah definitely it’s own series. Wario Land’s sorta it’s own thing, but has some ties to Mario (especially the first one). I think what fully stops him from being his own thing is how he still frequently shows up in Mario spin-offs and how his very design is based on Mario’s. I still advocate for a second Wario character though.

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Smash 4’s roster is heavily slanted towards recent characters. Half the old-school ones are third parties and there are barely any in-between characters.
Old School:
– Little Mac
– Palutena (and barely, since she’s 100%-based on Uprising)
– Duck Hunt Duo
– Mega Man (third party)
– Pac-Man (third party)
– Ryu (third party)
In-Between:
– Villager
– Bowser Jr.
– Cloud (third party)
Modern:
– Wii Fit Trainer
– Rosalina
– Greninja
– Mii Fighters
– Robin
– Lucina
– Shulk
– Dark Pit
– Corrin
– Bayonetta (third party)

I’m not sure if Ryu counts as old school or in-between (I went with the former). The original came out in 1987 but nobody cared about Street Fighter until Street Fighter II, which was in 1991.

Sakurai has already shown he has a general disinterest in the DK series beyond it’s arcade days. It has nothing to do with Retro Studios.

 

From: Featured Comments

(I combined two comments from the same post)

Pretty spot on with your comments here! DK/Yoshi/Wario’s categorization is a bit tricky, but I think you did a good job explaining why they could/couldn’t be in their own categories. I hope WarioWare/ Wario Land will come back. I’m afraid without a new entry they’d be little reason to add a second Wario character.

Your distinction between old school/modern is also spot on. I’d just put Palutena in Modern since her design is based on Uprising. Little Mac was heavily influenced by the arcade game (as you stated), so I’m not sure how much his Wii apperance influenced Sakurai’s decesion to add him.

Spoiler title

A very good analysis. I will say though that sometimes the reason is simpler than one may think. I don’t think Donkey Kong games on the Gamecube and GBA were part of the reason for Diddy Kong getting in, but that he got in because he’s an important Nintendo character. Same goes for King Dedede. Speaking of Dedede, it’s kinda strange how Sakurai showed too much restraint and had it underepped for so long seemingly to avoid favouritism with a series he created (even though Kirby was big enough to warrant Dedede in Melee) yet just had no self-control when it came to Kid Icarus in Smash 4 when he only made one game but didn’t create the series.

Also that’s kinda strange Sakurai would use Shadow the Hedgehog of all games as a reference for Modern Sonic. Sonic isn’t even playable in that game.

From: On Character Selection: Brawl

I think Shadow game influenced the AT choice. It’s just never stated outright. For KI, I think without Black Pit it’s pretty fair.

Spoiler title

I got GTA V for 30 dollars with Xbox Live Gold. Hopefully nintendo does the same kind of discounts with their games

From: Japanese Players’ Impressions of the Switch

That’d be great, and with My Nintendo Nintendo s kind of moving towards that. Hoping for the best, preparing for the worst with regards to Nintendo’s online service.

Spoiler title

Its obvious back when Brawl was in development SE just weren’t going to play poker at that time. He definitely had a better shot at DLC but I suppose Sakurai figured Cloud would be a “once in a lifetime chance” whereas Geno is a lot more flexible. Mallow and Geno will probably be wholly owned by Nintendo one day (if something terrible happened to Square Enix) since they could just claim them with first dibs.

From: On Character Selection: Brawl

The way that Nomura talked about Sakurai it really seems he gave him free reign. If Sakurai wanted Geno instead of Cloud, he probably could’ve gotten him in Smash for Wii U/3DS. It’s just Cloud took priority…especially as a DLC character.

Spoiler title

First, Fire Emblem Heroes is still a better game than Pokemon Go (Niantic deserves all the criticism it gets). Anyone who defends them is a blind Pokemon fanboy.

Second, poor Advance Wars fans are already giving up already. Not like I’ve expected IS to return to that series after the travesty called Days of Ruin.

Third, enough of the “Alm/Celica for Smash” bandwagoning. We already have enough FE in Smash.

From: SG Roundtable: Fire Emblem Direct

Pokemon Go was launched unfinished.
I’d be okay with ALm/Celica in Smash if they got rid of different FE character. 5 is the max for FE IMO. Though the FE Switch protaganist would probably be the character to get into Smash, if anyone.

Spoiler title

You see, the thing about the K. Rool Mii costume is it doesn’t feel like a genuine consolation, but more like “There, K. Rool’s in the game, now stop asking.” When you look at stuff like Proto Man or Dunban, you can see how they’re consolation prizes since these characters will never be playable in Smash, plus they are a cool nod to them. Then there’s costumes for characters Sakurai has wanted to include but was unable to, like Heihachi and Geno. What’s notable though is that these costumes are fitting to the type of Mii Fighter they’re for (Mega Man X as Mii Gunner, Llyod Irving as Mii Brawler etc.). They feel like they were made with an appreciation for the character and they fight the Mii Fighters’ fighting styles appropriately. You can pretend you’re playing as them due to some similarities and the quality-look of the costumes.

And then you get to the K. Rool outfit, which looks pretty bad as Mii outfit (basically a fat suit), but more importantly, unlike something like the Zero costume for the Mii Swordfighter which can at least allow you to emulate the character in some ways, what in Mii Brawler’s moveset allows you replicate even one thing K. Rool does in the DKC games? Most of the Mii costumes allow you to have a bootleg version of the character in someway, but K. Rool’s is one of the few that does not. It”s clear it wasn’t a product of love like some of the other costumes. I mean, he didn’t go and make Ridley a Mii Fighter outfit, did he? Sakurai may not want Ridley to be playable, but you can see he does care about how the character is portrayed in Smash. Has Sakurai even once talked about K. Rool in interviews? I don’t think he has from what I can remember. I’d like to know if he has. But I don’t think a Mii in a fat suit even does the character anything more than a disservice to his fans. I’d argue it’s comparable to Bad Box-Art Mega Man in Street Fighter X Tekken in that people would rather nothing at all than what we got instead.

“I think 4 would be great (If 1 was a clone or a semi clone).”
Why does one need to be a clone/semi-clone? It’s had over twenty games.

“I think Spring Man could replace Corrin.”
Spring Man at least would get in on his own merits for representing a new IP. His inclusion would be more comparable to the Inklings rather than an advertisment (Arms will come out before they even announce Smash for Switch assuming they’re saving it for E3).

___________________________________________________________________

Crud, I meant “Llyod Irving as Mii Swordfighter”. I really wish we could edit comments here.

___________________________________________________________________

“Can anyone bring up a single case where a character got in only because their home series “deserved more reps”?”

Sakurai set a spot aside for “New Pokemon character” in his project plan for Smash 4 before he even chose Greninja.

From: Featured Comments

Mii Brawler is the best choice for a King K. Rool costume. It’d be weird to give him a sword or a gun. K.K. Slider felt weird with a gun, and if it wasn’t free I wouldn’t have even bothered getting it. It’s just a matter of not having proper moves for the character. As I’ve said for months, with King K. Rool I think he was highly requested in multiple regions, but he wasn’t relevant enough to warrant a DLC character release.

With Sakurai saying Smash is good for advertising IPs, and Corrin getting in partly for his ability to advertise, I don’t see why not.

Spoiler title

“This. Pretty much when a lot of people want Impa, they just want more Zelda representation. They aren’t requesting Impa as a character for her own attributes.”

That’s a pretty bold claim. If people just wanted more Zelda representation then any old Zelda character should do, clearly there more to the reason people gravitate towards Impa for Zelda and King K Rool for Donkey Kong.

When people say they want Rool and DK needs more reps I don’t know why the assumption is that they just want more DK reps and will push whichever one has the most momentum, as opposed to them genuinely wanting Rool and citing a lack of DK reps as support for why he ought to be included. The same goes for Impa, even if people just want another Zelda rep they’re still elevating Impa above numerous other contenders so clearly she’s being pushed for her own merits over others in her series, not simply by virtue of being a Zelda character.

At the end of the day none of this should really matter. If Impa got in then the people who supported her would be happy about her inclusion, regardless of their reasons for supporting her. Even if someone just wants her for the sake of getting more Zelda why isn’t that a legitimate reason to desire a character? Is my desire to see a series I love further represented in smash though characters with tangible importance to it’s history and future, worth less than joe schmo’s request for the main character from whatever the latest indie game he played was?

I don’t like the idea of having one-off Zelda characters in Smash at this stage and it annoys me to see so much support thrown behind whatever new Zelda character is a big deal in the latest game, regardless of how unlikely it is they’ll ever appear beyond it. However, even if I disagree with the reasons for their support I would never presume to claim that the support for that character isn’t completely genuine and every bit as valid as the support I show the characters I desire.

From: Featured Comments

I really don’t think it’s a bold claim. A lot of people wanted Zelda representation, and they though Impa made the most sense (since there’s a Tingle hate base). K. Rool also fills in the role of being a villain, which people note Smash lacks.

As a Zelda fan, I would be happy if Impa got in. However, I really do a lot of people want Impa simply because they think she’s the ‘next best, recurring rep’. In my opinion, some people are not wanting that character because out of love for the character but for some imaginary box that needs to be filled in their head. They aren’t imagining how that character would play, how that character would look…they just get stuck on the CSS. In my opinion, why bother? Especially when Zelda can be represented through items and amazing stages. I personally think Tingle would be a fun character to have as a fighter — but a lot of people outright hate him, and he hasn’t had a lot of games recently. I ger excited when I see a character like Villager, and they work as a fighter. Or Wii Fit Trainer, and Mr. Game and Watch. Those two are from games I have little connections to, but are fun to see in Smash because of how much personality they add to the game. I don’t get excited when I think of Impa as a character. What version of Impa are we talking about? Will it be that game’s Impa or a collection of titles? What will her moveset look like?  For the record, I think K. Rool would be a fun character to have in Smash.

Spoiler title

I don’t think Brawl’s characters were really chosen for recentness. Maybe someone, like Lucas, Ike, Lucario and (a bit less) Olimar, but that’s it.
So Diddy, Dedede, Meta Knight, Wario, Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard, Wolf and Samus had all had big roles recently. Well, of course they did.They were, and still are, some of the most important characters in some of the most important Nintendo series. They always get big roles. So, eh :/
Then you had Ike who was not just the last FE lord, but the first international FE lord and the main character of two episodes, and Olimar from Pikmin, which was a new series, but not THAT new already and with 2 titles and 2 ports under its belt. They were recent alright, but they already proved themselves.
You can bring out the recentness excuse for Lucas and Lucario, but it’s 2 characters. And even then, Lucario was the only non-gen 1 pokèmon so it made some sense, and Lucas was intended to be in Smash ever since Melee.

So I think back in Brawl characters were chosen for their own merits, not just for recentness like it happened for the vast majority of Sm4sh’s newcomers. Rosalina isn’t, and won’t ever be, much more than the Petey Piranha of the week (except for her 3d World role). Palutena just isn’t, and won’t ever be, in the same league as Diddy, Wario or Dedede (or even characters like Toad, Dixie or Ridley). Both Robin and Corrin will soon get lost as just another FE lord. Dark Pit and Lucina are, in the grand scheme of things, extremely minor characters (even clones and semiclones used to be selected better, like Toon Link who appears in a ton of games or Lucas who at least is the main character of his game).
The only good choices were the Villager (AC is very big and deserves a character), Little Mac (not really a retro character anymore but with a lot of legacy) and Shulk (main character of a promising new series, a bit like Olimar was in Brawl’s time).

From: Featured Comments

You might want to read NantenJex’s piece

Spoiler title

Wait, wait, when did he ever say that? And then why is Diddy there if it’s only Japanese?

From: Does Bomberman Have a Chance!?

Pushing the Limit

Working on Smash is difficult, and each entry is more taxing than the last. We ought to be grateful we can spend so much money to create this game and freely use many famous Japanese characters and other content—and that so many people worldwide are going to play this game. I feel really lucky to be able to do this job, although perhaps it’s more like the job chose me.

Probably because Diddy is still an important Nintendo character.

Spoiler title

He wants you believe it took 8 weeks, from the end of the “fighter ballot” to the Nintendo Direct, to gain copyright clearance, develop her, & get her ready to show off, where as it took Mewtwo, whom we later found out wasn’t created from scratch, was completed in a hard 7 months.
He wants you to believe a character that he so happened to proclaim as the “new standard for action games” has been requested more in a short period of time than other characters have in 13 years.
He wants you to believe he’s not partial towards any franchises, yet Fire Emblem got 3 characters alone from its previous 2 games, one of which wasn’t even available yet in Europe and NA.

It would have been more respectable for Sakurai to have just said “Here’s Bayonetta, because I’m obsessed with her.” Trying to paint a narrative like set up a phony poll and predetermine the winner to make her seem like a bigger deal than she actually is, is so Sakurai. Remember, because he was all about “promoting characters to boost their games’ sales”, which coincidentally Bayonetta 2 was not a hit. Funny how it’s only the games he likes that he’s willing to promote, & to the games that don’t matter to him are swept under the rug.

If he can’t show the results, then clearly he has something to hide.

From: New Content Approaching: Bayonetta

I fully believe that Bayonetta was on the top of realizable characters.

What does realizable mean?
-Not anime/manga
-Was able to fit into Smash
-Was a character that was on the worldwide stage
-Was a character they could quickly get the copyright approval for

I don’t think they waited until the voting was over to choose Bayonetta. I’m sure they started her before the ballot was over.

Congrats on 100 comments on SG!

 

 

 

That’s it for this week! Thanks for all the great comments, and for debating stuff respectfully.

 

33 comments
  1. I don’t know who this one guy thinks he is saying they should drop Corrin from the roster. I mean yes I’d want someone from ARMS, if not Spring Man, to be chosen to represent the game in Smash and FE does have too many characters but Corrin at least has his dragon powers to make him unique and represents the first customizable character to be the protagonist in FE, let alone get in Smash. Removing him/her would be a waste of a unique character.

    If anyone should be dropped from the roster, it’s Lucina and Roy. Lucina was a last minute slot filler anyway, hence why she’s a complete clone. We really don’t need more than one character with Marth’s moveset, much less 3. Roy only exists to please Melee’s fanboys anyways. They can harp on about how Melee is the best game in the series but considering Melee is full of broken hitboxes and other exploits being the only reasons they say so to begin with. The DLC team had their chance to prove to me Roy deserves to return and ruined it by keeping him a clone. Sorry but when it comes to FE, the roster only needs Marth, Ike, Robin and Corrin. Maybe Celia/Alm but considering there are franchises that don’t even have a second rep at the moment (coughF-Zerocough) I think we’re better off just sticking to those four.

    • Theres no reason to actively campaign for any character to be removed from the roster, clone or not.

      Bob Lennon on January 26 |
    • But Roy’s our boy 🙁

      ze on January 26 |
    • “Removing him/her would be a waste of a unique character.”
      Tell that to Pokemon Trainer and the Ice Climbers. Corrin is a one-off lord that was only added for advertising, like Roy before him. Cutting him would be a great apology for the Fire Emblem overrepresentation since Sakurai went out of his way to add him which directly contradicts what he said about the last few characters being fanservice. Roy and Lucina can go away too. Smash 4’s FE roster would have been great if it was just Marth, Ike and Robin. By the time of Smash 5 (if not a port of Smash 4) I think it’ll be ready to have four characters because of Fates, Echoes and the new Switch game.

      MagcargoMan on January 27 |
      • Sakurai has nothing to apologise for. Also finding it very ironic that you want to dump Corrin for either a) an Echoes rep (who wouldn’t tread any new ground in terms of movesest potential) or b) a potential FE Switch rep, who would be in every way as much an advertisement as Corrin was, but isn’t optional DLC. Lets just keep the characters we have and worry about future FE representation when we get there.

        Bob Lennon on January 27 |
        • He went against his word. He got people’s hopes up and let them down so he could advertise an already-overrepped series. He needs to make things right.

          I never said I wanted an Echoes or FE Switch rep. I said by them existing now I’d say Fire Emblem is easily big enough to warrant four characters.

          MagcargoMan on January 27 |
          • As usual, this sounds more like a personal issue on your part than a legitimate reason for removing a character.

            Bob Lennon on January 27 |
          • So basically your argument boils down to ‘I don’t like Corrin, so no one should get to use Corrin’. No one forced you to purchase more Fire Emblem characters, and removing Corrin doesn’t create more content; all it does is fulfill your own selfish desire.

            Bob Lennon on January 28 |
          • Corrin’s inclusion wasn’t for legitimate reasons (soulless advertising) either so I don’t seem the problem if you deem the reason for removing him illegitimate.

            Gee, you really like to pic a fight replying a second time because you wanted another response. A lot of people don’t like Corrin, a lot of people are unhappy with his inclusion, a lot of people (Sakurai included) have pointed out six Fire Emblem characters is too many.

            Removing Corrin doesn’t create new content but it means there’s less of great bias in the roster.

            MagcargoMan on January 28 |
          • How did he go against his word? It’s not like he intentionally kept a DLC spot sitting there all warmed up for the moment a new Fire Emblem game would be announced just so he can add the character to Smash Bros and fulfill some childish obsession with the Fire Emblem series – all the while denouncing any other series.

            We all know how it went down, Intelligent Systems approached Sakurai and talked to him about adding Corrin. Sakurai initially felt like the five FE characters he had was enough, but decided to add Corrin in because the Dragon powers set him/her apart from the other sword-wielding characters.

            It’s not like Corrin was sitting on some designated spot on the roster that another character “deserved” because Sakurai likes Fire Emblem, if Corrin wasn’t added to the roster, we could have had another character, or we could not have had a spot added at all – honestly, I would take having a character over the idea that they might not add a character.

            KL-Cobalt on January 27 |
          • He said in interviews after Roy and Ryu were revealed that any DLC characters from this point on would be fanservice. I don’t care for Cloud but he is definitely fanservice, and so is Bayonetta (in more than one sense of the word), but Corrin wasn’t demanded, he was added to advertise an upcoming game, and Sakurai even says so in the final Smash Direct. The dev team egged him on, and given the big push Fire Emblem is getting now as seen with all the upcoming games in the Fire Emblem direct, it really seems like the higher-ups at Nintendo might have had a hand in the push it got in Smash.

            Also do you really believe that dev time on Corrin would have been spent slacking off? There probably would have been another character instead because of the project plan. And even if there wasn’t, no character in his place would have easily been preferable to a sixth FE character.

            MagcargoMan on January 28 |
          • Since I can’t reply to the reply down below, this one will have to do – same comment thread…

            “Also do you really believe that dev time on Corrin would have been spent slacking off? There probably would have been another character instead because of the project plan. And even if there wasn’t, no character in his place would have easily been preferable to a sixth FE character.”

            So you’re basically saying that there was another character planned, but because Sakurai is such a big Fire Emblem fanboy, that when he was presented with the idea of Corrin he dropped everything else to give Corrin their spot just to spite the fans after promising them that every other DLC character from that Roy/Ryu onward was catered extensively towards fans of Smash Brothers…

            And yeah, I’m not sure if dev time would’ve been spent slacking off but for all intents and purposes – the game was done, all the DLC were merely extras as he interpreted it. It’s not like he was obligated to work on another character, but we got Corrin anyway.

            KL-Cobalt on January 28 |
          • No, I’m saying there probably would have been the same amount of DLC characters even if we didn’t get Corrin. I’m not saying another character was planned, I’m saying he probably had DLC slots set out. I mean, would there have really been no first-party newcomer if Corrin didn’t get in? A Nintendo newcomer would bring hype; it’d be nuts not to have one.

            MagcargoMan on January 28 |
          • Actually there originally was only 2 slots, the third (Corrin) wasn’t patched in until later.

            I think you’re vastly overestimating the Corrin hate, if he was really so undesireable a character then why would anyone pay money to play as him? You’re projecting your own opinions onto a fanbase that’s much larger than a single website.

            Bob Lennon on January 28 |
      • Pokemon Trainer and Ice Climbers were cut because of hardware restrictions – They both couldn’t work on the 3DS, and the transforming gimmick couldn’t work on the 3DS at all, so Charizard was kept because of his popularity while the Ice Climbers were cut altogether. Sakurai hated cutting Ice Climbers, but did so to complete his vision for a portable and console game working in tandem.

        We don’t have Wolf and Snake because obviously the issues with Snake alone – perhaps the deal was made for Brawl only… As for Wolf, well Star Fox was pretty dormant as a series and Wolf alone was made haphazardly in Brawl to squeeze him in.

        KL-Cobalt on January 27 |
  2. “As a Zelda fan, I would be happy if Impa got in. However, I really do a lot of people want Impa simply because they think she’s the ‘next best, recurring rep’. In my opinion, some people are not wanting that character because out of love for the character but for some imaginary box that needs to be filled in their head. They aren’t imagining how that character would play, how that character would look…they just get stuck on the CSS.”

    A lot of the fanbase gets caught up in comparing their favorite franchise to others, treating the number of characters they have as some kind of proof of worthiness. It’s like a measuring stick, which is why there’s so much talk about “reps” and who is “over-repped” or “needs more reps”.

    Thing is, that’s not how the developers look at it. These people going on about “reps” are missing the point.

    delzethin on January 26 |
    • “These people going on about “reps” are missing the point.”

      And what point is that exactly? That people aren’t allow to what whatever characters they want for whatever reasons they consider important?

      “Thing is, that’s not how the developers look at it.”

      Sakurai has outright stated that “Distribution among the franchises is also taken into consideration” when deciding the roster:
      https://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/26/sakurai-on-character-choices/
      He’s also mentioned being worried about Fire Emblem being over-repped in Smash 4 and not wanting to over-rep Kirby as early as Melee, in addition to deciding Smash 4 should have a Pokemon rep from X&Y before having any specific Poekmon in mind.

      Anyone who thinks series representation is a non-factor in character choices is deluding themselves.

      Mettaur on January 27 |
      • It’s considered in context, but it’s not the end-all be-all many fans assume it is, it’s not even the most important factor by far, and the fanbase would do well to realize a character getting included or excluded isn’t a statement about how worthy said character’s franchise is.

        delzethin on January 28 |
  3. On the topic of recentness. I don’t think it’s fair to say that it always played a role on character selection as big as it did in Sm4sh. Characters like Diddy, Wario or Dedede could have been added on 3DS/Wii U just as much as in Melee, or even in 64, and you could say that recentness played a factor in their inclusion. Their series always get new games and they almost always get big roles.
    And even for some characters like Ike or Toon Link, recentness may have been a factor but there were a lot of other reasons as well. What happened with Smash 4 was that PROMOTION started to have a big influence on character selection, not recentness.

    Ok, let’s do this.
    SMASH 64
    Everyone came from the very biggest Nintendo series, and apart from Pokèmon, they all had games in the previous generation (the SNES, while Smash came out on the N64) and they were all very succesful (yes, even Mother, at least in Japan). If anything, it was them promoting Smash, not the other way around.
    You can say that we had Ness instead of Ninten, but Ness wasn’t just the main character of the last game in his series, it was also the only game released in the West. Plus I think Mother 2 was already regarded as THE Mother game. It just made more sense to have Ness.

    MELEE
    Bowser and Peach – Staples of the Mario series since forever. They both could have been in Smash 64 and no one would have batted an eye. Smash wasn’t promoting them.
    Ice Climbers – They were ancient history. Plus at that time you could play their game for free in Animal Crossing. They weren’t there for promotion.
    Mr. Game & Watch – Same as the ICies.
    Marth – More or less the face of Fire Emblem and the first lord. Fire Emblem was already around since forever, even if only in Japan. He ended up promoting the series… but that was more of an after-effect. If you have to add one character from Fire Emblem, who do you pick?
    Zelda / Sheik – Zelda is one of the only 3 real reocurring characters in her series. Which takes its name from her. Recentess played a factor with Sheik: if the last big role Zelda had wasn’t in OoT, I don’t think we would have ever seen Sheik in Smash. But he was a part of Zelda. And Zelda is a classic character.
    Mewtwo – The closest thing to a villain Pokèmon had. He’s very important (and popular) in his series. Always was.
    -Now for the clones:
    Pichu – Maybe recentness was a factor in his inclusion (since he never returned…), but I don’t think the hidden, self-hurting joke character was a way to promote Gold/Silver. Plus Pichu was very popular.
    Falco – Fox’s right hand. Around since the beginning of his series.
    Dr. Mario – Little spin-off around since the NES days.
    Ganondorf – The main antagonist of the Zelda series. Technically around since the NES days.
    Young Link – Link’s alternate form. Also, the “original” Link.
    Roy – The only character for whose selection promotion had a role.

    In Melee, promotion didn’t play much of a role. Every regular newcomer was a classic character with a big history of “service”, or a retro character. The clones, too, were all main cast members in their own series. The only exception is Roy, but he was also a last-minute character and, well – 1/25 is not that bad.

    BRAWL
    Wario – He was considered for Melee, how was recentness a big factor in his inclusion? He already was a very big character, with Wario Land, the appearences in Mario spin-offs and just being very popular in general. He was always going to get in Smash. Him having a second series was just the icing on the cake. I mean, it’s Wario.
    Diddy Kong – if anything, he got in DESPITE recentness. In the last big DK game, Jungle Beat, he didn’t appear. Of course no one even thought about it at the time, because it’s fucking Diddy Kong. Like Wario, he’s one of the very biggest Nintendo characters ever.
    Pokèmon Trainer – Yes, there were the remakes of Red/Blue, but he is the first Pokèmon main character (like Marth for FE) and he has Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard. Squirtle and Charizard have always been some of the most popular pokèmon, long before the remakes came out or were even in the works. Ivysaur was just there to complete the trio.
    Dedede / Meta Knight – So they had big roles in recent Kirby games. Duh. They had big roles even in old Kirby games. They always have big roles in Kirby games. Are you really trying to tell me those two were some flavor-of-the-week characters? Come on.
    Olimar – Pikmin was a new series, but not THAT new (we’re talking about the generation previous to Brawl’s one) and it had two games plus the remakes for Wii, and it was pretty succesful. Olimar was recent, but he was not there just because of that.
    Pit – he was the starting retro character, much like the ICies. Yes, Kid Icarus had a reprint for the GBA, but… is it really that significant? Mother 1 has been rereleased recently too, but you didn’t see Ninten become DLC for Smash 4. Maybe, just maybe, Pit’s inclusion has more to do with the fact that his game is a little cult classic?
    Wolf – He’s a constant presence in his series. Assault and Command developing him a bit probably helped with his inclusion, but really… We could have just as easily got him in Melee and Falco in Brawl. He was not a recent character.
    Ike – So he was the last lord, but: he debuted one generation before, he was the main character of the first big international FE title and already the only lord besides Marth to be the lead in 2 games. Ike was new, but also significant.
    R.O.B. – I don’t think there’s much to say here. He was making some cameos at the time (Pikmin 2, F-Zero GX and more notably Mario Kart DS), but he still is an important piece of Nintendo’s history. It’s not like he’s playable because he had an appearance in Mario Kart that one tme.
    Lucario – The most recent Pokèmon character, but also the only pokèmon in the roster not from Gen 1, plus he had that movie and he was already very popular. Would it have been weird for him to debut in Smash 4? I don’t think so.
    Lucas – Maybe he is the only newcomer who you could say is there to promote his game. But still, he was intended to be in ever since Melee and he is the best choice for a second Mother character.
    Zero Suit Samus – She was pretty recent at the time of Brawl’s release, but I don’t think she was promoting Zero Mission, where she appeared for some 20 minutes at the very end.
    Toon Link – He was (relatively) recent, but… He was taking the place of Young Link, and he already appeared in a lot of games besides Wind Waker. It’s not like if we had Skyward Sword’s Link in Smash 4.
    Sonic / Snake – They’re a special case, but I doubt you’ll find many characters as big as them for the videogames industry.

    So how important recentness was for Brawl? A bit more than Melee, maybe, but it had a fine balance and even then most characters brought something other then being recent (like Toon Link, or Ike). They all were already proven. Characters like Diddy or Dedede were always going to get in, sooner or later. I hope this thing is clear. Plus, nobody was promoting anything. Even the vast majority of the more recent characters was at least one generation old.

    SMASH 4
    Villager – He’s fine. He could have easily joined in Brawl (his stage did, in fact).
    Wii Fit Trainer – She’s fine, Wii Fit was recent (but not TOO recent) and it was a big success. She has merits of her own, even if I personally find the character extremely boring once the novelty wears off.
    Rosalina – Eeeh… She had a big role in Galaxy, a miniscule one in Galaxy 2 and some appearances in Mario spin-offs. A secondary character at best. Guys like Daisy or Petey objectively don’t have much less going on than her. Had she appeared in the older Mario 64 or Sunshine instead of Galaxy, she wouldn’t have gotten in.
    Little Mac – Fine, Punch-Out was always a pretty big series.
    Greninja – Work on him started while his game was still in development… Kind of like Roy in Melee. I like him but let’s be honest, he got in to promote X/Y. Lucario, by comparision, was a lot more affirmed at the time of Brawl’s release.
    Robin – Like Greninja, work on him/her started while Awakening wasn’t even released. He was always there to promote Awakening.
    Palutena – She didn’t have an important role in years and she’s in just because of Uprising. She gets half a pass since, if you’re going to include a second Kid Icarus character, it has to be her. But let’s not try to put her on the level of characters like Diddy or Wario or the majority of Brawl newcomers. Palutena wouldn’t have gotten in without Uprising. Dedede would have gotten in even without whichever the last Kirby game before Brawl’s release was.
    Shulk – Comparisions with Olimar make sense but only up to a certain point. He’s the only character in Smash’s history to come from a series that had only one game (except the ICies). One game only, that wasn’t even as old as Pikmin 2 was when Brawl released. Some kind of “testing the waters” definitely played a part in his inclusion.
    Bowser Jr. – He’s been around since Sunshine and had a ton of major roles and appearances ever since. He’s fine.
    Duck Hunt – The retro character. Fine.
    Lucina – Awakening is the only Fire Emblem with two characters. Like Robin, development on her likely started when Awakening wasn’t even released. Of course she’s there to promote the game. She doesn’t have any special reason to be in.
    Dark Pit – The most irrelevant character to ever be playable in Smash. The only one to ever appear in only one game while not being a main character. He’s here just beacuse Uprising was recent (even better, he’s clearly here just because Sakurai made Uprising).
    Corrin – That goes without saying… Officially ammited to have been made just for promotion.
    Pacman / Megaman / Ryu / Cloud – Like Sonic and Snake, they all make sense regardless of anything.
    Bayonetta – Meh, she may have… “won” the Ballot, but who knows. The 1st “among realizable characters”, 1st only in Europe, unspecified top 5 in the US and missing in Japan. And there was this Wii U Bayonetta 2 to sell…

    You can’t look at all this and say the character selection for Smash 4 followed the same guidelines that it did for the other episodes. That’s just spinning the truth. Recentness/promotion went up a ton in Smash 4’s priorities. Before, there was SOME of that, but always applied to characters that had other merits and who at least didn’t have their game in development together with Smash. The single exceptions can be Roy and MAYBE Lucas (but that’s a special case, Mother 3 was in development even before Smash 64).

    ze on January 26 |
  4. “I really don’t think it’s a bold claim.”

    Claiming people don’t want Impa for her own merits is a bold claim. What is your basis for this? Because you personally don’t see the appeal of her character? Because people frequently bring up the lack of Zelda reps when talking about her, something that also gets brought up when people talk about literally any potential Zelda newcomer? Again, when people mention lack of reps as a reason for supporting a character, why are you assuming that is the sole reason they want the character? If someone is supporting Impa over any other new Zelda rep then clearly that has something to do with Impa herself, in other words, Impa’s merits as a character. Lack of reps is going to be brought up when talking about any newcomer for any franchise that’s perceived as under repped, I see absolutely no reason to signal Impa out specifically as having “fake” or “lesser” support or whatever it is you’re trying to get at here.

    What your saying here is effectively equivalent to someone saying “Tingle supporters are just trolls who only support the character to spite the hate-base and don’t actually care about Tingle in the least” or something of that respect. You seem to just be making sweeping assumptions about people’s thought processes to justify dismissing the support for a character you clearly don’t much care for having in Smash. Now not wanting Impa is fine in and of itself, but let’s not arbitrarily deem certain support bases as less authentic or valid just because you aren’t interested the character they rally for.

    I will now spend the rest of this post addressing your concerns about Impa and why I think she’s pretty great. Take it or leave it 😛

    “They aren’t imagining how that character would play, how that character would look…”

    If anything I see discussion of Impa’s potential moveset brought up more frequently than most characters because it isn’t immediately obvious how she should play. A good portion of the discussions always seem to end up talking about basing her off Hyrule Warriors, though that’s not an idea I’m particularly fond of, nor one I consider terribly likely to happen.

    As a Sheikah, ninja-like movements and abilities of a given for Impa’s arsenal, Sheik had an entire moveset based off this facet of her character alone. Skyward Sword also showed her to be capable of magic, with the ability to create magic-based barriers and explosives. I don’t know about you, but a spell slinging ninja lady sounds exactly like the type of character I’d love to see brought into Smash.

    As for how she should look its pretty widely agreed upon she’d use one of her younger designs from OoT, SS, or HW (though I for one would totally be up for old lady Impa if they could find a way to make her work). That or some amalgamation of her various appearances like what the Star Fox characters get. Her Skyward Sword appearance seems like the most obvious to use, it being her most recent appearance in the main series as well as her biggest role in a game to date. I think a Smash original design would be fine too, though none of the other Zelda characters get that treatment. Considering Zelda is a brunette in smash despite blond Zelda being much more iconic and Ganondorf was actually changed between Brawl and 4 to be more specifically TP based I don’t see using a single version of Impa to represent her as an issue.

    “I get excited when I see a character like Villager, and they work as a fighter. Or Wii Fit Trainer, and Mr. Game and Watch.”

    Wii Fit Trainer is a character absolutely no one wanted until they were in the game. You talk about how much seeing Wii Fit Trainer excited you, but would you have been at all interested in the suggestion of Wii Fit Trainer prior to her actual appearance in the game? Somehow I doubt it.

    You keep bringing up how characters should get in based on their strengths as a characters in their own right. Wii Fit Trainer was a complete non-character prior to getting in Smash and some would probably argue they still are. In Wii Fit the Wii Fit Trainers are tutorial menus given form and a voice, they have about as much “character” as the signposts from Mario or Yaru de Pon from Star Fox. They couldn’t even really be considered mascots of the series. The Wii balance board was the first thing that came to mind when one though of Wii Fit and a talking version of the peripheral had a much more prominent role in the game itself than the trainers.

    Impa has considerably more going for her than WFT did before making it into Smash 4. WFT would never have excited anyone if they had never been given a chance to do so. Considering how well WFT turned out despite having so little working in their favor it seems incredibly silly to write off Impa as not even deserving of a shot.

    Mettaur on January 26 |
    • Part of Impa’s issue is the character has a constantly fluctuating design, she’s mostly an old woman or a middle-aged one, and very rarely does she ever fit a action role.

      But when it comes right down to it, Zelda as a series doesn’t actually have that big catalog of characters to rummage through to have a playable character to add, at the very least not ones that are series staples – Tingle exists, Impa exists, but anyone else is usually a one-off character, and usually a minor one at that.

      KL-Cobalt on January 27 |
      • To add to my point, When I mean “action role” – I don’t mean that for Impa to fit in Smash, that she has to have some sort of moveset based on her more action-oriented roles – but what I mean is that in most games, she’s usually never noted for anything more: She’ll give Link directions, instructions, exposition, etc – that’s what she’s known for.

        And it may be me, but I find it very hard to imagine a character who is mostly known for being an info box to be a fighter unless they have some quality about them that could make them seem to base a moveset around. Rosalina is a perfect example: Despite being essentially the same kind of character Impa is in the Mario series, Rosalina’s character also involves the Lumas and galaxies, which could be represented as both fighting moves and in the flow of Smash’s controls.

        Sure, Impa has some roles where she has more to her than exposition, but whenever the series wants to put her in those kind of roles, they give her a younger physically-able body to fulfill said roles, instead of showcasing the more elderly Impa in the same state – giving her an ‘old martial arts master’ vibe which I think could work well for Smash.

        KL-Cobalt on January 28 |
  5. “With Sakurai saying Smash is good for advertising IPs, and Corrin getting in partly for his ability to advertise, I don’t see why not.”

    Still, picking a character just for advertisement can backfire since you just don’t know how the audience at large will take to them. Corrin is a prime example since they are much less popular than I think they thought they would be (especially male Corrin). They are often seen as unlikable and at the best dull, and at the worst just plain…not intelligent. Even people who like Fates often seem to have trouble with them. It just shows that just because they were popular out of the gate in one region (Japan) does not mean they are going to go down as some of the best FE protagonists. Yes, they are still protagonists in a game played by more people than most in the series so it stands to reason they have more fans than most, but that does not mean that they are a good choice to represent the series.

    I realize that some have that issue in main development (Greninja and Robin come to mind) but seeing as cuts are so rare and FE in particular is a revolving door of protagonists, it would make sense to wait and see if some of these characters have staying power or if they are important to the series. Awakening saved the series so reps from that make sense, but Fates really just tried to be Awakening in a lot of ways, and yes it made a lot of money (which makes sense since you had to buy it three times plus DLC maps to get the full story), but it did not seem to do much of importance.

    Arthur 97 on January 26 |
    • I don’t think Male Corrin is necessarily bad, just that his lines and delivery is less than the Female Corrin’s. Aside from that, most people disliked the inclusion of Corrin from the start mainly because it was another Fire Emblem character being added to the game when it could’ve been someone else.

      KL-Cobalt on January 28 |
  6. I’ll just leave the comment of next week here now Push. What do you make of the new amiibo certificate Nintendo recently filed?

    I’ll break it down for you.

    Certificates filed ??? ? AA?? are for the Smash Bros line.

    On the 18th Nintendo filed these.

    http://cpsia.nintendo.com/104951/104951.pdf

    http://cpsia.nintendo.com/104798/104798.pdf

    One is AACK (for Cloud, Corrin or Bayonetta not sure yet). The second one filed was AACN. I’ll list the amiibos based on the order the characters were announced (though I’m not sure if its correct but bear with me).

    AACK = Cloud
    AACL = Corrin
    AACM = Bayonetta
    AACN = ??????

    Hang on a minute…… By golly this can only mean one thing. Alph is getting an amiibo! 😀

    Or is it for something else?

    haruhisailormars on January 27 |
    • “Amiibos”

      Ack! As a trainer of these things, it’s killing me every time I see “amiibos” – The plural of “amiibo” is “amiibo” It’s like Moose – There’s no “Mooses” or “Meeses”

      Anyway, if that’s a legit case right there, we might be seeing a Smash port on Switch sooner than later. If I’m a betting man, I say our mystery amiibo is either Ice Climbers or Inkling – Ice Climbers because they were working on Wii U so bringing them back wouldn’t take much time, Inkling because they’re relevant and it might be a while *if* we get Smash 5 (Or Smash 6, if we’re going by that thing about one version being 4 and the other being 5.)

      Or… We could be seeing yet another set of amiibo for a completely different series – Maybe ARMS? Or Splatoon 2?

      KL-Cobalt on January 27 |
  7. All the names are spoilered this time. Cryptic!

    It seems I hit the mark with that first (well, two in one) comment. I’m glad you agree. I didn’t bring up Little Mac being based on the arcade game though, that was KL-Cobalt that did. As for whether the Wii game influenced his inclusion, I’d say… maybe. He probably would have made it into Smash as a retro character even if the Wii game never existed but I think getting a new game gave him a little boost in priority. As for a second Wario character, I dunno if a new game is what will drive Sakurai to include a second; he seemed to acknowledge Ashley a fair bit in this game with both the Assist Trophy and Mii Fighter costume. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see her in Smash 5, though I’d much rather Captain Syrup.

    I just assumed Shadow was the Sonic AT because he was popular. As for the KI thing, I agree that without Dark Pit the KI roster would be fair, but I still think maybe it could have done with a few less items (some of them are annoying anyway), Smash Run enemies (most of them are very annoying to fight). Really though, my main point of contention with the KI content besides Dark Pit is stages. I mean, I’m not against it having a new stage in both the Wii U and 3DS versions, but I don’t think it’s right how it did when plenty of bigger series only got one new stage across the two versions. I expected Uprising would give KI a boost in content, and it should, I just think he should have went a little easier on it given how at the end of the day it is niche series with only three games under it’s belt in over 25 years.

    Yeah it’s the best choice out of the three Mii Fighters to choose from; what I’m saying is that he’s a character that couldn’t be done an justice with a costume at all. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say many K. Rool fans would have rather no Mii Costume of him at all. Also was that last part about Corrin’s inclusion referring to Spring Man? Because I was saying I was in favour of Spring Man’s inclusion. He has reasons to get in that still exist even if his game came out years ago, mainly representing a new IP (think Olimar in Brawl) and would have some pretty interesting moves with his insane range.

    MagcargoMan on January 27 |
    • “I didn’t bring up Little Mac being based on the arcade game though, that was KL-Cobalt that did.”

      It was in your list, and you were the one that put him in the retro spot, which for all intents and purposes was the Arcade version, going by Sakurai’s words.

      KL-Cobalt on January 28 |
      • I put him there because he debuted in 1987. Same reason Ryu’s there even though he’s based on Street Fighter II and not the first game.

        MagcargoMan on January 28 |
        • Same thing man…

          KL-Cobalt on January 28 |
  8. I don’t know why it’s still controversial, but Lucina and Dark Pit got in because they took a trivial amount of effort to include. That’s it. Just because they appear equivalent to other characters in menus and such doesn’t mean it’s true from a development standpoint. A good 5th of Melee’s roster being clones seems to have thrown off how people view them. Essentially, there are 5 actual Fire Emblem fighters and 2 actual Kid Icarus fighters, plus a glorified character customization option for Marth and Pit. It’s about as superficial as the Mii costumes are. They don’t take away from, add to, or overrepresent anything–even more so than Melee’s clones.

    Igiulaw on January 27 |
    • Yeah, but people have been upset about clones for ages since after Melee’s release.

      I can see Sakurai’s train of thought there, it doesn’t make sense for a character to completely copy another but have a single attribute changed and not be their own character. Plus, more faces on the roster gives more variety – and it literally costs them little to work on.

      But considering how polarizing Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem is in the Smash community, with Sakurai just finished with Uprising, and Fire Emblem being confirmed to be a favorite series for Sakurai despite many others feeling that other series “deserve” more love (Despite not really having many characters that stand out – unless we’re grasping straws) it kinda seems bad that they of all the characters are getting more hate.

      Doc seemed to slice on by because he was in Melee and because he was from Mario – the company’s flagship franchise.

      KL-Cobalt on January 28 |
  9. I get the feeling that part of the comments bloat you had to deal with Push is my fault. I try not to overdo it, but it seems like this time none of my comments were chosen so… yay?

    Well… I guess I have some amiibo to train…

    KL-Cobalt on January 28 |