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Filed under: Masahiro Sakurai, Super Bros. Smash For 3DS, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Super Smash Bros. for Wii U, Super Smash Bros. Melee, Super Smash Bros. Series

Smash Bros. Roster Cuts

Cut characters alt

“Whether it’s a minor character or a character that is one of the most highly skilled and most played,  if that character is removed from the game, the people who live for that character in Smash Bros. are going to have their feelings hurt.” – Masihiro Sakurai

Character cuts are always a very touchy subject in Super Smash Bros.  The franchise is very character driven, after all, and roster discussion always tends to dominate most Smash forums. Fans actually lament cut characters to the point that cut veterans are leading many current DLC polls. It does bring to question future cuts in the series. Who, from the Smash for 3DS/Wii U roster, will not make it back in Smash 5 and beyond? To answer this question, we will look into which characters were cut in previous smash games as well as why they didn’t return.

Wait, what do you mean not everyone is coming back?

Characters Cut from Brawl

Super Smash Bros. Melee’s roster was very much an upgrade from Smash Bros. 64, and everyone of the characters found in the original game made their way back in the Gamecube sequel. Brawl, however, was a different story. Brawl saw five total characters cut from Melee. They were as follows:

Doctor Mario
Young Link

With the exception of Mewtwo, all of these characters are clone characters, a distinction that should be taken note of. All of the characters with the exception of Roy also happen to come from established series with more than three reps. Besides that, they share very little in common. The main take away from this grouping is that clones are more likely than fully unique characters to be cut and franchises with multiple reps are more likely than small franchises to see losses.

Characters ALMOST cut from Brawl

Jigglypuff, a member of the N64 original 12, was almost cut multiple times.   This would have made her one of the only  unique characters (although she does share some animations with Kirby) to be removed between games, and the only character cut from Smash 64 to Melee.

Sit this one out Ness, I got it!

Ness, the protagonist of Earthbound, was going to be outright replaced with Lucas for Melee.  The delay and cancellation of Earthbound 64 saved Ness’ spot in that instance. While it is never explicitly stated by Sakurai, it seems likely that Lucas would have been far more similar to Ness’ if the former had not returned.

These two facts are important as they shatter the “rule” that the “original 12” (the characters that originated in Smash Bros. for the Nintendo 64) can never be cut. It is also important since these are non-clone characters.

No contest.

Characters Cut from Smash Wii U/ 3DS

The latest iteration of Smash has seen a few cuts of its own. It has also seen a few resurrection, including that of  Lucas, as DLC. We shall take Sakurai’s word that DLC was not planned (although I do have my own thoughts on the matter, read them here) and count Lucas as a full cut even though he eventually returned. The cut characters for Smash for 3DS/Wii U are:

Solid Snake
Ice Climbers

This is a far more varied list of removed characters than what we saw in the transition from Melee to Brawl. Of these characters, only two (Wolf and Lucas) could be considered to be clones of any type, and considering how much their move sets diverge from their source characters, even calling them semiclones is a bit of a disservice. Why then, where these characters cut? Let us look at them in more detail.

“Characters from a series that has no future are rarely chosen.” – Masihiro Sakurai 

Smash 4 really could use more landmasters

This quote from Sakurai may shed some light on these cuts. Star Fox as a series had been on a decline for some time by the time Smash 4 development began. The last original game in the series was the lack luster Star Fox Command in 2006, and Miyamoto himself stated that the 2011 3DS remake of Star Fox 64 would be used to gauge interest in the series. Star Fox was a franchise with 3 playable representatives in Brawl, one more than Donkey Kong and the same amount as Kirby, both of which are larger franchises. It should not come as a huge shock, then, that a character like Wolf would be a lower priority during the planning stages of Smash 4. Lucas came from a franchise in much worse shape than Star Fox, and is also from a game that never released in the West.

“The reality of the situation unfortunately is that there are certain limitations on the 3DS, so we’re forced into a situation where we may need to reduce some characters to a certain degree.” – Masihiro Sakurai 

This quote actually accounts for three separate cuts.  Ice Climbers is the first and most obvious. Many characters were stripped down in order to function on the 3DS. Olimar, for example, had his number of Pikmin reduced from 6 to 3.  While this was a bit upsetting to Pikmin fans, it was better than what happened to Nana and Popo. The Ice Climbers simply could not work on the 3DS, so even though Sakurai was able to get them working on the Wii U, they ultimately did not make the roster. The fact that the Ice Climbers are essentially from a dead franchise may have made the decision easier for Sakurai as well.

Squirtle… um, squirts into battle? No? Well, might as well cut him.

The other character limitation that the 3DS’ lack of processing power resulted in was the removal of transformation characters such as Zelda/Sheik. This lead to the Pokemon trainer essentially being reduced to just Charizard.  Squirtle and Ivysaur just didn’t have the star power to carry their own solo slots.

The final cut is Snake. Snake’s situation is tricky, as it could have been caused by many things, ranging from Nintendo’s relationship to Konami to Sakurai wanting to ensure a lower rating for the game. The one thing that can be taken from Snake’s removal is that 3rd party characters are subject to different rules than the rest of the cast.

What we learned

We’re late to Smash 4 Lucario! Just leave the box and hurry up!

So, what have we actually learned about cuts?  Let’s recap:

  • Being part of the original 12 doesn’t guarantee you a spot (Ness and Jigglypuff), but it doesn’t hurt
  • Sakurai has considered replacing characters with new characters from the same franchise in the past, but hasn’t quite done so
  • Third party characters are guests and can be cut if circumstances change
  • Clones, and clone like characters, are likely cuts
  • Characters from franchises with more than two reps are more likely to be cut than characters from series with 1 or 2 playable characters
  • Dead or dormant franchises are easy targets for character removal
  • Pokemon are likely targets for cuts (The only first party characters with fully unique move sets to be cut are Pokemon, those being Mewtwo, Squirtle, and Ivysaur. Jigglypuff was also almost cut twice, and the series has seen more cuts than any other franchise.)
  • Technical issues can result in cuts

None of these are hard and fast rules, but they are good guidelines while looking forward. Keep this in mind and please look forward to part two of this article, in which I go down the list and examine whom I think has the biggest chance of not joining the battle in Smash 5 and beyond.

  1. “Sakurai has considered replacing characters with new characters from the same franchise in the past, but hasn’t quite done so”

    I think it has done so. Lucario and Ike are pretty similar to what Roy and Mewtwo would’ve been if they were added in Brawl.

    • Thing is, Roy and Mewtwo were _going_ to be in Brawl! They have leftover data files in Brawl’s code, and out of the scrapped characters who have leftover data, they have the most, implying they were the furthest along. Ike and Lucario didn’t “replace” them; if anything sealed their fate, it was the dev team running out of time!

      Delzethin on October 7 |
      • In fact, the semi-clone moveset Roy has now may have been intended for his Brawl incarnation…

        Delzethin on October 7 |
      • Honestly, if anyone replaced Mewtwo in Brawl it was probably Sonic. Considering how much later he was added and how much it delayed the game, it’s not unfeasible a couple cuts came from his need being greater as a popular third party character. And with six characters from Pokemon – four of which couldn’t be cut halfway through development – maybe Mewtwo was simply pushed out for time.

        Wolfman_J on October 7 |
  2. Ike I can maybe agree with, but Lucario being similar to Mewtwo I do not. Roy was a clone, so replacing him with non-clone Ike seems logical. Mewtwo had a completely unique moveset and really only shares his neutral B with Lucario (and even those have different properties.)

    I’m surprised nobody mentioned Young Link being replaced by Toon Link, though.

    Winturwulf (@winturwulf) on October 7 |
    • I really should have brought up Toon Link in that context, but I’m so used to thinking of him as just being an updated version of Young Link. You are right, though. It’s just that it’s a bit of unique situation.

      Spazzy_D on October 8 |
  3. “The last original game in the series was the lack luster Star Fox Command in 2006”

    Triggered af.

    Bala on October 7 |
  4. “Squirtle and Ivysaur just didn’t have the star power to carry their own solo slots.”

    I do not understand this point. Squirtle is a very popular Poke’mon that still continues to show up in video games with Pokémon Super Mystery Dungeon being one of them. At this point, I think it is important to ask “Am I letting the viewpoints of others to heavily influence my sense of judgement?” A past article on this site also mentions that the votes from hardcore players are quite misleading when paired with the unspoken voice of the casual players.

    The point I trying to make is that Nintendo is also appealing to the casual audience. Hard-core voices will only get a small set of influenced opinions. I believe an article on this site with the same idea was called “The Dangers of Online Polling.” Also, it important to remember that extensive game-play balance had to be done on these Poke’mon as separate characters while including a new move and final smash.

    In my opinion, if there was only enough time to bring back one Poke’mon, Charizard perhaps was chosen to keep our super heavy weight numbers up as this game has added in none.

    Interesting piece of trivia: Shigeru Miyamoto’s favorite Poke’mon is Squirtle (from a spanish interview article).

    Aqua-Drought on October 7 |
    • Very interesting points. I think Squirtle and Ivysaur COULD stand on their own as playable characters, but over-saturation of Pokemon is probably why only one of the three was chosen. Charizard is definitely up there in popularity, though. Plus, having him evolve into Mega Charizard was probably an easier Final Smash to come up with than something for Squirtle (though I think Surf would’ve been pretty entertaining.)

      I do hope we get Pokemon Trainer back in Smash 5… I though the concept was really interesting and pretty much embodied the Pokemon series better than the individual ones did.

      Winturwulf (@winturwulf) on October 7 |
      • Is the trainer concept really worth the development effort of three standalone characters? If anything, I’d blame the trainer for Mewtwo not returning in Brawl (and probably at least one other character, but Mewtwo directly). 3 starters from a Pokemon generation that already has a glut of characters is overkill anyway. Smash 4’s “pick one starter from a generation” policy works fine.

        Igiulaw on October 7 |
        • I think the Trainer concept is brilliant. I’d personally rather see two or three Pokemon go if it would mean getting the trainer back.

          But then again, I’m a Gen Wunner, so I never really got attached to Pokemon like Lucario or Greninja (though I admit they are pretty rad.)

          Winturwulf (@winturwulf) on October 8 |
  5. So how about Captain Falcon? We have not seen him be replaced or cut by Sakurai. (I don’t want him to ever get cut as he’s my main.)

    JimRyuu on October 7 |
    • I really wouldn’t worry about Falcon. Sakurai clearly doesn’t want to cut whole franchises; Snake and the Ice Climbers were specific circumstances that weren’t really under his control. Series may lose some of their characters, but once they’re represented in the roster it’s not likely for them to leave (and stuff like the possibility of Lucas replacing Ness are extreme). Plus, the Captain’s a beloved staple of the series; by this point he’s more important for his role in Smash than his own games.

      As for F-Zero on the whole…that’s a bit touchier. It’s hard for Sakurai to keep drawing blood from a stone that’s been dull since 2003 (and whose stuff often has to be largely imagined), and we may end up just getting some light content until such time as a new title comes out, if it ever does.

      Wolfman_J on October 7 |
  6. Also, I love this site. : D I look forward to any other news.

    JimRyuu on October 7 |
  7. I think I have some theories of who’s gonna be rejected if there’s gonna be Smash 5…

    ・Certainly the Smash 64 veterans will return no matter what.
    ・Dr. Mario may be rejected since he’s a Mario clone. Rosalina maybe too since she was much of being a surprise character which nobody every expected to join in. Plus as there’s no sequel for Mario Galaxy series ever heard since then, maybe she’ll be rejected. I think Bowser Jr. may stay due to him using the Koopa Car, and I think that saved him rather being a Bowser clone.
    ・Ganondorf is a C.Falcon clone, but maybe will survive as being one of the main Zelda characters along with Link and Zelda, as also being a main Zelda villain. Unless he could change his moveset to something different, like using a sword or magic rather than punch and kicks. The toonized Zelda series are also still in progress, so Toon Link may also survive, even he’s a Link clone, but maybe change his moveset to something more different.
    ・I don’t about Falco’s fate, but even he’s been a Fox clone, he’s still one of the main Fox character along with Fox, as being Fox’s best partner and rival. Maybe he’ll stay, unless his movesets changes, like using the iconic Arwing rather than the Landmaster.
    ・The Pokemon will have many additions and rejection for sure, except for Pikachu as being the main mascot of the series, and Jigglypuff as being a Smash 64 veteran (and a role of burying the empty slot). Although similarities, Lucario is no clone to anyone, so maybe he’ll return. Charizard’s case I don’t know, but Greninja may be rejected as well and replaced with the new generation Pokemon, if there is one.
    ・Ness may return as being a Smash 64 veteran, and being a main face for the Mother/Earthbound franchise. Lucas may be rejected due to being a Ness clone and for his game never to be released globally.
    ・I do wish the Ice Climbers to return in Smash 5, unless it won’t have a handheld version of the game. Sakurai should understand the handheld version lacks power, so Smash 5 should only be for the home console version, as the Ice Climbers should return with his old and unique system. But that’ll depend since their game is quite dead without any sequels. I think we can say the same thing to R.O.B. and Duck Hunt as well, and maybe G&W.
    ・Lucina may be rejected for being a Marth clone, but maybe survive as being a replacement of Marth.
    ・Dark Pit may be rejected too as being a Pit clone. Although he’s been one of the main Palutena character, I wouldn’t think he’s that important in opinion.
    ・Animal Crossing is still a popular continuing game which may possible return, but Wii Fit and Punch Out is the tricky one. Each character can represent their certain martial art skills (Wii Fit Trainer for yoga, while Little Mac for boxing), but their games doesn’t have much of a long sequels, so it depends.
    ・Shulk might be replaced with the new Xenoblade character, but that’ll depend too.
    ・3rd parties may be a tricky one. Sonic may return since he’s strongly popular as both Nintendo and Sega have great relationships, and maybe Pac-Man will return if Smash 5 will be built by Bandai Namco again. I don’t know about Mega Man since Capcom’s not treating him well, as Ryu might return as being Capcom’s main franchise. There may be other chances for other companies like SquareEnix, but this also depends too, in a strict way.

    Sorry for the long text, but this is my theory of who might be rejected for Smash 5. However, unless Sakurai won’t create a handheld version of the game, then maybe some can be saved as well.

    zoniken on October 7 |
    • I’m not so sure about the possibility of Falco or Rosalina getting cut, or Ganondorf being changed to a “sword and magic” user unless Sakurai is no longer part of the series.

      Marth isn’t going to get cut either; if anything, Lucina will. Marth is a fan favorite in Japan and is far too important to the series to be cut. He was the main protagonist of the first Fire Emblem, his game was remade and expanded in the first Super Famicom FE game Mystery of the Emblem, and both games were remade for the DS. In addition, he appears in Awakening ALONG WITH Lucina as an important element. Marth is the most enduring lord in the series… nobody else has had their game remade TWICE and hardly any lords appear in multiple installments (Leif, Roy, Eliwood, Hector, and Ike are pretty much the only ones, not counting Awakening.) Lucina was in ONE game, IMPERSONATING Marth. In the grand scheme of things, she’s pretty much on the same level as Roy, and we know what happened to him in Brawl.

      Shulk is a bit of a tricky one. I could see him returning for being unique (and a fan favorite), even though the series has been spiritually succeeded by Xenoblade X. Seeing Elma in the next one wouldn’t surprise me, though.

      Mega Man would probably return before Ryu, honestly. Ryu’s more relevant now, but Mega Man has far more history with Nintendo and recognition in general. He’s basically Capcom’s mascot.

      I totally don’t anticipate Dark Pit returning. Dr. Mario probably only will if development time allows for it, like in both Melee and Smash 4.

      Also, Lucas isn’t a clone… people need to stop saying that. 🙁

      Winturwulf (@winturwulf) on October 8 |
  8. I’m sorry but I think you have forgotten a very important evidence: Smash 4
    I bet any character who survived more than one cut, is a sure thing! They are part of Smash Series now. They are “Smash Characters”.
    Characters like Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Ness, Marth, MrG&W, Ganondorf (Falcon-Style), R.O.B. are now part of Smash! They are partly more Smash Characters than the character they represent. They won’t change much. Smash without one of them wouldn’t be Smash anymore!
    It doesn’t matter if WiiFit, Villager, Little Mac, Greninja, Rosalina are relevant nowadays. Lucario and Ike prove that. They came back just because of beeing unique but not beeing relevant at the moment. Smash is a history game. Look at the All Star Mode. There are characters from a lot of different eras. Yes, Shulk might be forgotten in five years, but no one other can bring Monado Arts to Smash. Why should they cut a chara who has such a unique ability?
    Charizard is offically the MOST popular Pokémon of ALL TIME. That’s why he was chosen over Squirtle and Ivysaur. I miss Squirle though^^
    I think the fact that Mewtu, Roy and Lucas were brought back via DLC may give them better chances for coming back to Smash 5.

    So my current prediction who might be cut contains only:
    Dark Pit, Lucina, Pac-Man, Mega-Man and Ryu, maybe Sonic

    But I think it is also more possible that no one is cut. Look at the facts. Pokemon Trainer is represented by Charizard and Young Link by Toon-Link. Lucas, Roy, Mewtu are DLC. Maybe Wolf too. IC will probably coming back in Smash 5. 😉

    Snake and Pichu are actually the only characters really cut from the Smash series currently!! Think about that!
    I say no one more is going to be cut!! Only Thirds, maybe!

    cedrickterrick on October 8 |
    • Source for Charizard being the most popular Pokemon?

      I’m not disagreeing or anything… I honestly don’t know. I’ve been out of the Pokemon fandom since the early 2000’s. :[

      Winturwulf (@winturwulf) on October 8 |
      • Well I read that a few years ago when I was thinking about the Roster of Smash 4. Many people thought the Pkmn-Trainer should get upgraded with new Pokémon for Smash 4. But that didn’t make sense to me at all!
        Like Marth “Red”, the namesless “Pokémon-Trainer” from Brawl, was the first Trainer of the first game. He also appeard in the second gen as secred boss, like Mewtu in the first gen. That puts Red on the same level as a Marth and as a Mewtu! No one can tell me that any other Pokémon-Trainer protagonist can say that about himself! So Red has a few storyrelevant Pokémon: All starters from gen 1, Pikachu, Snorlax, Eevee and probably Mewtu.
        It made most sense to add the starters to his Moveset in Brawl of course.
        What I want to say is: The Pokémon-Trainer in Brawl was added as a RETRO character like Pit in Brawl! It made just so much sense.
        So why Charizard? Well he was on the cover of one of the first games and on it’s Remake! He was one of the first faces of the series. So a lot of people playing the game logically chose the monster on the cover. When I asked people in school most people chose Charmander because Charizard was awesome. Because he is a DRAGON! 😉
        I didn’t believe it because I was always more of a Squirtle guy. Then I found a few sources on the internet that said Charizard was the most popular Pokémon of all time acording to a few surveys. So other people obiviously do agree.
        I found one source here a few minutes ago.
        So for Smash 4:
        I guess Ivysaur was always a placeholder between Squirtle and Charizard because Nintendo usually promotes the first or the last form of a starter. So Squirtle vs Charizard? I guess Charizard made more sense because of Greninja and that he was on the cover instead of Squirtle. And: You have Squirtle only in the beginning of Pokémon. But if you have a Charizard you have it for the rest of your game which is much longer.
        That’s also why Seceptile makes ABSOLUTLY no sense to me! He is just a random Pokémon im my eyes. 😉

        I’m not a huge Pokémon fan, but I love Smash and try to understand the why characters were chosen for Smash. 😉

        cedrickterrick on October 9 |
  9. The only 64 veteran I see possibly being cut at this point is Jigglypuff (sadly 🙁 ) The other’s are either the main head of their series, or Luigi, who never has a chance of being cut ( I mean he’s freaking Luigi, I think he has priority over a lot of other characters)

    I think any non 3rd party character besides puff that has been in two games (at launch) doesn’t have a chance of being cut,

    I think Mewtwo is going to stay for the next game, seeing as he was defiantly the most requested returning veteran (hence why he was announced as DLC so early) and I think the dev team knows this. Roy I think has a decent chance of coming back too, and seeing how he and Mewtwo were both really close to making it into Brawl helps this (I think the only thing that kept them out was Sonic) I think Lucas has A semi good chance of coming back as well

    as for characters I see likely being cut;

    any of the 3rd parties have a chance at being cut, and I think Ryu is the least likely to return

    the 3 smash 4 clones all are likely candidates for cuts, honestly though I see the Dr. as the most likely to be cut out of them. I could see Dark Pit and Lucina being brought back in a way similar to how Ganondorf and Falco were in Brawl (and Roy was in Smash 4) being made more unique and becoming semi clones, I see this as likely as the all the clones from Melee that didn’t appear in Brawl (minus Roy, who was strongly intended for inclusion, only behind mewtwo, and had alot more work done on him than the Dr.) were alternate versions of existing characters (young link to link. pichu to pikachu. the Dr. to Mario) However they aren’t as iconic as Falco and especially Gandorf so this point may be moot. I still see them as the most likely candidates to be cut, but I think they might get in if there is enough development time.

    Other than that, the only one I think the only characters who have a chance of being cut are Greninja, as he really isn’t as popular as his fellow pokemon reps (minus possibly Puff) Rosalina and Bowser Jr. again just because they aren’t as iconic as the other Mario characters, but even than I don’t see them being to likely of getting cut

    the only time a unique, non clone or semi 1st party character was cut and it wasn’t for technical issues, was Mewtwo, which is why I believe he will likely come back next game, and is why I think all the newcomers in 4 (minus the clones and 3rd parties) are very likely to come back

    sorry for the long ramble

    tmsforever1 on October 8 |
  10. wolf isnt a clone lol, less than half his moves are shared with fox or falco, while the majority are completely original.

    andrew on October 9 |
    • TBH, Brawl really didn’t have any clones. Yes, some characters shared similar specials, but their normals tended to be pretty much completely different.

      People still say Lucas is a clone too, yet for some reason I never really hear about it for Toon Link. 😛

      Winturwulf (@winturwulf) on October 9 |
      • brawl didnt have clones, but it had semi-clones (ganondorf, falco, toon link, lucas, and luigi). this is the best clone breakdown out there, and as shown here, wolf only shares roughly 28% of his moveset with fox. if thats enough for someone to call a character a clone, theyre mad.

        andrew on October 9 |
        • Apparently a l9t of wolfs move are similar to other characters moves…I can’t quite remember where I saw it, I think it was on an episode of Know Your Moves by RelaxAlax

          Mikau on July 3 |
  11. –I think we’ll keep Rosalina since Nintendo has been making efforts to establish her among the cast as a more important character (In addition to joining the list of spin-off characters she also got a playable berth in 3D World over the likes of say, Wario or Waluigi.)

    –Bowser Jr. is a bit trickier since he was nearly cut in the development of Sm4sh to begin with. It helps his case that he’s a completely original character, but if the Mario series ends up trimming any fat that’s not Dr. Mario, I think Jr. is going to go just on principle of becoming less relevant in the series (although the fact that his alts are the Koopalings, which are becoming MORE relevant in the series, helps a lot)

    –Greninja is a real toss-up. We can’t argue that he’ll get replaced by the newest “cool” Pokemon because Lucario wasn’t replaced and Mewtwo being cut from Brawl was independent of Lucario’s addition. He’s not a clone certainly helps, but it’s hard to really tell if he’ll get the boot right now.

    –Charizard (who I’ll discuss here alongside the other newcomers given his special status) is another weird one. If transformations come back he’ll almost certainly be reverted to his Brawl status as a Pokemon Trainer Pokemon. If not, I’d peg Charizard at about Lucario levels of safety on the roster; fairly established but not necessarily a lock.

    –There isn’t much reason for them to drop Little Mac aside from maybe a lack of popularity in Japan, but the franchise has significant popularity outside of Japan and has at least had a game fairly recently (Poor F-Zero…)

    –Robin is another toss-up since they’re unique among the Fire Emblem roster but also clearly added because Awakening is the newest available FE game. If Ike and eventually Roy’s returns are any indication, FE characters aren’t automatically screwed once the new games come out. I’d honestly peg Robin above Ike on “character safety”; Roy is quite popular among Smash players and Robin is more unique and hails from a more widely-known entry in the series than Ike. That said, It’s hard to say if they’ll get the boot.

    –Palutena I think is a lock just on virtue of being an original character from an underrepresented franchise (Being one of Sakurai’s babies may or may not help, depending on whether you believe in Sakurai Bias).

    –Villager is the only rep from their franchise and Animal Crossing is one of Nintendo’s more popular IPs, so unless another character ends up replacing them ala what was supposed to with Ness and Lucas (which I honestly can’t see happening since I can’t think of a more appropriate AC rep) they’re a lock.

    –Duck Hunt i’m convinced was added at least in some part as a sort of “replacement” for the Ice Climbers as Nintendo’s “NES Representative” I personally think Sakurai knew from the start that ICs might be tricky to get working on the 3DS, but still wanted an retro rep and thus added DH to the roster hoping that maybe he’d be able to get both of them working. Honestly though I’d say Duck Hunt is more iconic than ICs ever were. Not saying I don’t think ICs might come back in Smash 5, but I do believe they’ll hang onto Duck Hunt just because they’re more memorable.

    –Wii Fit Trainer, for how oddball a selection they were, will likely stick around by virtue of being the sole representative of the Wii Fit franchise.

    –With regards to Shulk, I honestly think he’s going to end up with Marth’s status as the “legacy character” of the Xenoblade franchise. The other reps might change (I have no doubt we’re going to get Cross in Smash 5, for isntance), but Shulk will remain the constant.

    –Dark Pit and Lucina are likely cuts due to their clone status. Dark Pit has the issue of Kid Icarus likely going dormant again (I don’t recall there being any plans to do anything more with the IP.), while Lucina has the issue of later Fire Emblem games simply not featuring her in a starring role. I’d put Dark Pit over Lucina simply on virtue of being from a less-represented franchise (and again, there’s always that belief in Sakurai Bias if you swing that way.)

    –Mega Man and Ryu are weird because Capcom is weird. I honestly don’t know if either one of them will come back; it all depends on what happens to Capcom between now and whenever Smash 5 is announced. I’d put Mega Man above Ryu just on virtue of being more popular among the Smash community, although Capcom has been pushing Street Fighter more and more so it’s wrong to completely discount Ryu.

    –Pac-Man is a lock if Namco develops Smash 5 as they did Smash 4. Even if they don’t, Namco is a far more stable company than Capcom with a more friendly relationship with Nintendo to boot. The fact that Pac-Man was considered for Brawl but ended up being cut not due to any difficulties with rights but with difficulties devising a moveset lends further credence to the idea that Pac-Man will come back so long as Namco doesn’t collapse within the next few years.

    –Finally, the Mii Fighters likely won’t go anywhere unless Nintendo outright replaces Miis, in which case the Mii Fighters will just be replaced by Fighters of whatever the Mii Replacement happens to be. As for the specific varieties of Mii Fighter, I don’t see Sakurai cutting any of them.

    Golly damn fuck that was long-winded.

    GoldGeno on October 11 |
    • Good thoughts, but I have to disagree about Palutena and Lucina.

      Palutena is the “Zelda” of Kid Icarus in Japan because the series is called “Lightmyth: Palutenas Mirror” over there. Pit AND Palutena are the most important faces of Kid Icarus. Pit alone in Brawl was a Retro Chara like Ice Climbers, R.O.B., Mr G&W and Duck Hunt Duo. But with KI “reborn” trough KI Uprising (“New Lightmyth: Palutenas Mirror”), it has become a “real” franchise and is no longer “just” retro.

      Lucina is one of the most popular Fire Emblem characters ever, especially in Japan. AND she is a woman! That may sound strange, but look at Smash 4’s roster. The number of women increased significantly. Only one was cut ever. And that was Nana. I guess Sakurai didn’t do this exidently! (half WFT, half Robin, Wendy, half Villager, Palutena, Rosalina, seperate ZSS, seperate Sheik, default Mii Gunner, Lucina, not counting any genderless characters and Animals/Pokémon^^)
      And most important: Fire Emblem is a franchise were man and woman are equal. So it DOES need female representation. (Not just female Robin! ;D)

      cedrickterrick on October 13 |
  12. I feel like Nintendo was relatively careful with their third party picks. Sega, Bandai Namco, & Capcom are pretty friendly with Nintendo for different reasons. As such, I don’t think that Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, or Ryu are going anywhere. Sega has 2 branches of Sonic right now (Modern Sonic & Sonic Boom), Capcom’s gearing up for a Mega Man comeback as well as maintaining Street Fighter’s prominence, & Namco’s doing more with Pac-Man.

    As for first party characters, the Original 12 have made it this far, so I don’t think that will change. The Smash 4 clones are either gonna get cut or be brought back as playable, no middle ground. Fortunately, both Lucina & Dark Pit have the potential to be unique. But while Dark Pit can just pull from the dozens of weapons that Pit & Palutena left on the table, Lucina may have to be paired with Chrom like in Project X Zone 2 in able to become more unique. Shulk’s also in the clear since he represents Xenoblade as a whole, a franchise that’s on the rise over at Nintendo. Honestly, the only ones I’m concerned about right now are Wii Fit Trainer & the Miis (though the fate of the Miis depends on if the NX Platform retains the Miis or if said platform is gonna wipe the slate clean of anything related to the Wii or the DS).

    Neoxon on October 20 |
  13. Eh, on the Jigglypuff point between 64 and Melee, Jiggs didn’t just share some animations with Kirby, it was pretty much what we define as a semiclone these days, sharing about as much as Brawl Dorf and Brawl Falcon. Jiggs have gotten more unique since mostly due to changes made to Kirby.

    RWB on October 28 |
  14. out of possible character cuts here is what I Believe:

    – pretty much most if not all 3rd party characters may likely be possibly cut from the next game, it really depends on weather nintendo can keep a good relationship with these companies but out of the 3rd party characters that have a better chance of staying it would be Sonic, pacman, and megaman as they are pertty much gaming all-stars at this point

    -For the “original twelve” I believe the character that has the most likely chance of being cut would be Jigglypuff and be made way for a newer or more fan favourite pokemon. most of those characters are pretty much the entire faces of the franchises they represent except of Jigglypuff

    -For the Super Mario Bros series i believe that Doc. mario could be cut and possibly be melded to mario as an Alt. costume. and possibly bowser jr could be made to a DLC character in the future.

    – i have a feeling that all clone characters in smash 4 would be cut or made into more distinct semi clones or made as DLC characters in the future.

    metricasc02 on December 19 |
  15. I have hope for everybody. I don’t see the problem with Squirtle & Ivysaur not working alone. I mean, they don’t seem so hard to include. Just keep them how they we’er in Brawl, maybe change up their moves a little (like what they’ve done to Charizard), give them their own Down B and Final Smash and BINGO, they’re back as DLC. I’m gonna to include Pokemon Trainer, because he’s a previous character as well. I want him back and he’s you know, an ACTUAL fighter. I mean just think about it, you know Red’s doing actual combat and on my point of view, he’s the type of veteran who deserves to be in 4 with Squirtle and Ivysaur. I want him to fight! MAKE IT HAPPEN!!! For Wolf, I think they should maybe keep him unchanged or possible change up his moves a little bit. For Snake, I think he should stay the same because I can’t really see what different moves they can give him. As for Ice Climbers…well, I think Sakurai might, just might be trollen. I mean, he’s been trollen with us about so many things. I mean, hear me out. We’ve got Cloud and he seemed MORE difficult to include then Ice Climbers. I think he was chosen from the start and maybe he was in development for a year. Even Bayonetta, Corrin, & Ryu. Bayonetta’s got lots and lots of moves. It’s like they shoved a bunch of moves from her games and putter her in. Same goes for Corrin, I think he’s got the same thing. For Ryu, he’s got light, medium, and heavy versions of his attacks. Maybe he was in development for quite awhile. Cloud’s got a limit breaker not like anyone else. He’s feels broken. So yeah, I’ve got hope for Ice Climbers to be DLC sooner or later. For Young Link & Pichu, I see Young Link making a return and he’s based off of Hyrule Warriors. He battles with a two hand sword and doesn’t use his shield. He battles completely different in that game and I think he’ll be a better then Link & Toon Link. For Pichu(Melee main) I see him returning and he’s changed up. Like, he doesn’t hurt himself anymore, uses Iron Tail attacks, and WAY better then how he was in Melee. So yeah, I want him to return and he’s new and improved. Plus, I think nobody will be salty and complaining for Pichu being changed up. I mean, look at what they’ve done to Roy, they changed up his moves and feels way better then how he was. I see them do the same for Young Link & Pichu.They also brought back Dr. Mario and he remains unchanged, he plays just as how he was in Melee. I don’t think a lot of people wanted Dr. Mario back. I don’t think he was a popular Melee character. All of these Melee & Brawl vets, they all deserve to be in 4, they were all characters before. I mean getting rid of them gets rid of all the fun. Sakurai’s come this for with such an amazing roster, he can’t leave those characters behind. He…he needs to bring ’em all back to the series and make Pokemon Trainer fight. The roster just looks incomplete with out them. They all also deserve to return because they rule!

    Ice Climbers
    Pokemon Trainer
    Young Link
    & last but not least Pichu.
    I know Sakurai can do it. Even others know he can do it. I have faith in him.

    Christian Marrero on January 31 |
  16. After thinking about it for some time. The cuts for the Smash 4 Roster aren’t as bad. The Ice Climbers are not important to Nintendo at all. Their game wasn’t even that great. They were only there to represent the NES back in Melee. Now we have Duck Hunt and ROB who are more important than them. And what’s with people saying the 3DS shouldn’t exist because they lost one character? The 3DS version sold more than the Wii U version. Not making a 3DS version would hurt their sales and if there was only a Wii U version the Ice Climbers would still probably not be in it because of 8-player smash. Even if they were in the game, they would probably wouldn’t be as good anyways. For Wolf, he’s not that important either. He only randomly shows up to help you or to hurt you. He has no importance to the story what’s so ever. People say that Wolf is unique. Well, he does play a lot differently than Fox and fun to play as he is just another space animal with claws and mostly borrowed attacks from other characters due to his priority and time constraints.Tbh, I’m kinda glad that he didn’t return as DLC because then people would have to waste their money where he was available for free in Brawl.That just rips people off especially if he was to return in the package part of the game I know people wouldn’t have to buy him, but DLC has to sell well and has to bring new to the table or something that we haven’t see in a while (i.e. Mewtwo, 64 stages). More in the next comment.

    Rosalinatehplumber on September 17 |
    • For Squirtle and Ivysaur, they are not important or as popular like the other Pokemon. They were only added because of the Pokemon Trainer. After the Pokemon Trainer was cut, there wasn’t any reason to bring them back where they can make new and more important characters instead. I’ll be honest, I would rather have Pichu back than Squirtle and Ivysaur because he’s from a different generation and they can always make him better and more different than Pikachu. For Squirtle and Ivysaur, sure they are unique but I feel like if one of them returned the other one also needs to return because it would be weird if only one of them returned. I wouldn’t want the Pokemon Trainer to return because the Pokemon would relay on Stamina and the game would lag online. For Young Link, we already have Toon Link who is basically a Luigified version of Young Link. Yeah, they can make him a lot different but if Sakurai is in charge we would have a second semi clone Link who’s not popular or important. I would rather him be a last minute clone because he wouldn’t waste development time. Finally on Snake, he was involved in Nintendo’s history and the first 3rd party character in Smash. He is a unique character and he can be fun, but he’s very hard to play and it’s not my style. Actually, since Konmai is doing horrible nowadays I’m glad he’s not in because I wouldn’t want stuff from a crappy company to be in my game. If he were in the game, maybe they would have tone him down even more knowing how kid friendly Nintendo wants to be. I know this is a lot, but I just have to get it off my chest. Let me know what you think!

      Rosalinatehplumber on September 17 |